[glfor1]

Jim - #623 (2002)

Was having first routine oil change (on our pad in Indio) after purchasing coach about 2 years ago. The tech had emptied the old oil and was checking the pan plug and saw a metal particle (very small) on the magnetic end of the plug. When he further checked with his finger in the plug hole he discovered (after getting them out) a number of copper "beads" and "chips" up to 1/4" in size. Not being a diesel savvy person; but aware of the construction of an engine, I agreed with the tech that we may well have a catastrophic issue of a bearing or bushing failure. 

I am pursuing getting the unit towed (via flat bed) to their facility to drop the pan and see the actual debris in the pan and the condition of the crank, bearings, etc. to access the issues. This seems like a very unusual circumstance for an engine with only 80k miles; but; it is 22 years old.

Any comments, cautions, advises are appreciated and also; shop suggestions in the Indio / Inland Valley area for accomplished a successful repair.

TY, jim

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Jim - #623 (2002)

Was having first routine oil change (on our pad in Indio) after purchasing coach about 2 years ago. The tech had emptied the old oil and was checking the pan plug and saw a metal particle (very small) on the magnetic end of the plug. When he further checked with his finger in the plug hole he discovered (after getting them out) a number of copper "beads" and "chips" up to 1/4" in size. Not being a diesel savvy person; but aware of the construction of an engine, I agreed with the tech that we may well have a catastrophic issue of a bearing or bushing failure. 

I am pursuing getting the unit towed (via flat bed) to their facility to drop the pan and see the actual debris in the pan and the condition of the crank, bearings, etc. to access the issues. This seems like a very unusual circumstance for an engine with only 80k miles; but; it is 22 years old.

Any comments, cautions, advises are appreciated and also; shop suggestions in the Indio / Inland Valley area for accomplished a successful repair.

TY, jim

Jim,
Sorry for this, this is an unusual event for a Series 60. I am seeing a trend in the motorhome application of more issues, I have no data to back up my theory but I suspect this has to do with lack of use and or maintenance. The Series 60 is every bit of a million mile engine but when they sit and when they are not maintained they will not hit that mark or come close to it. Not saying that your engine is a result of either of these, but it’s hard to say without any data points. Do you have any maintenance records that came with the coach, this could help shed some light on what was done in its past, or not done. 
The beads of copper are unusual, the chunks are more typical of what is found in the pan. I would also make sure they pull the rocker cover and make sure all the cam followers are still intact. These years of Series 60 use ceramic cam followers for the injectors, and they have been known to splinter or shatter and leave debris in the pan. 

I am also new to purchasing a Series 60 Newell and I have already noticed some signs that it was let to sit since possibly 2019 from dates on the filters. I noticed a decent amount of blow by from the engine, this is a stream of “air” coming out of the breather tube from the rocker cover. I have done an oil change and it has helped some and now I am going to also adjust the valves. My engine has 194k miles on it. 
Please keep us posted as to what is found. 
I am in Florida so unfortunately I am no help with finding you a shop near Indio, CA. If you were further north in the sate I would recommend a mechanic I know in Oregon, he is very familiar with Detroits.

[glfor1]

TY Jeff for insight. I only have what the previous owner posted on spreadsheet of service about every 2 to 4 years since 2009. Admittedly, it has been primarily sitting for months at a time either at the RV seasonal lot or in covered storage during summer. Especially the last 6-8 years.

Regarding ceramic followers, we'll see if any of that debris type; only copper (about 6 he could get out with his finger; and 2 very small steel pieces).

We'll know more when the pan is dropped. And, they plan on accessing thru the rocker cover as well.

jim

[Richard]

This is my.02, and mine only.

Is it safe to assume that when they drop the pan, they will also unbolt the rods and mains to actually look at the bearings? If so, and the crank is not scuffed, you may want to think about rolling in new bearings while you are in there. Same thing if the cam shaft bearings are inspected.

Now if the gunk in the pan does not look like bearing material, ignore my commentary.

Did you possibly have any of the old oil left for a oil analysis? That would be my FIRST step before towing or pulling the pan. If you have a bearing breaking down, the oil analysis will show it. Sampling the new oil will not tell you anything.

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This is my.02, and mine only.

Is it safe to assume that when they drop the pan, they will also unbolt the rods and mains to actually look at the bearings? If so, and the crank is not scuffed, you may want to think about rolling in new bearings while you are in there. Same thing if the cam shaft bearings are inspected.

Now if the gunk in the pan does not look like bearing material, ignore my commentary.

Did you possibly have any of the old oil left for a oil analysis? That would be my FIRST step before towing or pulling the pan. If you have a bearing breaking down, the oil analysis will show it. Sampling the new oil will not tell you anything.

I would concur Richard. I inspect bearings but they do not go back in, I replace them no matter. They are not that costly and the labor is the same, does not make sense to put the old bearings back in. 

What is throwing me off is the beads of copper, I will be very curios to see what they come up with that produced those. Chunks and fines are the more usual findings in the bottom of the pan when issues arise. 

I was also going to say get an oil analysis, that is a good idea. My oil sample is sitting at home I need to get it in the mail box and send it off. This will tell any number of things, moisture in the oil, the metal particles in the oil, lots of good info can come from an oil sample. Sometimes they can provide clues, sometimes it provide more questions.

[Guy]

Mechanic might actually be looking at brass, and thinking because both are non ferrous , that it is copper ?

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Mechanic might actually be looking at brass, and thinking because both are non ferrous , that it is copper ?

Yes, I was kinda assuming it might be brass bearing material possibly. Only copper in the engine would be the wiring harness, and if that’s melted I would think you would have some engine codes. But who knows.

[glfor1]

My apologies. Yes it is most likely brass. Many time electroless nickel coated for wear and corrosion protection

Jim

[glfor1]

Just wanted to post an update and any input from this knowledgeable group.
Here is pic of inside the oil pan as the shop has just taken off. They will be accessing the upper rocker area in the next couple days (not easy). It is accessed from the rear closet. Anyone had experience in knowing what might be "suspect" location of internal issue with this type of "galled" product in the oil pan?
   

[Richard]

Jim

Impossible to tell what the material is from the photo. But…..it looks something melted or precipitated out of solution based upon what the round nodular appearance. That does not look like any bearing flakes, shards, or debris I have ever seen.