[Jonestead]

I am shopping for a new to us coach and unfortunately find myself in a bit a of a moral dilemma, so I pose this situation to the group for your feedback and a "what would you do"

I have found a coach that I am interested in, however there is a rather large discrepancy in the actual mileage. The current owner is saying the coach has approximately 100k miles, which they base on the current odometer reading. A little bit of research on my end has discovered that the odometer had been replaced at some point in prior ownership, so in fact the real mileage is probably between 300-400k.

My question/dilemma is two fold:

How much real value difference would the higher mileage translate to on DD Series 60 coach?

To be clear, I do not believe that the current owner was deliberately misrepresenting the mileage, but since I have now brought this to their attention (simply confirmed by the DDEC) any furtherance (if that were to happen) of the claim of lower mileage would in fact be a willing misrepresentation of a known material fact and condition. So, if I do not buy this coach, should I share my knowledge with the group or strictly abide by caveat emptor and keep my mouth shut? Bottom line is that someone is going to get hit by this reality, and I am interested to know what you all think and what you would do in this situation.

Thank you in advance for your thoughtful and serious comments/replies.

[SouthernDevGirl]

IMHO, it is the purpose of this forum to share such information.

If the owner is made aware of the issue and the misrepresents this to potential buyers later, it's potentially actionable (however, the template auto-sales contracts essentially negate this exposure by their language). None-the-less, it would still be highly unethical and the "right thing" seems to share that cautionary detail.

Of equal importance is the manner in which you've established it, so that others can consider the legitimacy of the source (which I have no doubt is legitimate, none the less).

As far as the consequences to you, I don't believe they would be substantial based on everything we researched prior to buying. Of course you should send the oils for analysis prior to buying; however, the bigger issues would be the wear on items outside of the engine/transmission.

I'm no expert, just sharing an opinion. It certainly wouldn't be the first time I was wrong.

[MrE]

I gave you my opinion on your FB post. Please check out Discussion about what to consider on buying a used Newell and make up your own informed mind.

For those of you not on FaceBook, this was my post; "Newells are built to go a million plus miles. The first Newell I bought had an odometer reading around 125k miles. While cleaning up I found a 10 year old receipt showing over 500k miles at the time. That was in the mid 90's ,I sold it in 2002, and the coach is still on the road today. My concern would not be about the coach wearing out. Definitely get analysis on engine, transmission, and generator oil, check out newellgurus.com for additional advice. NADA doesn't cover Newells so basically milage won't alter a non existent value. In my opinion the coach sitting for long periods is more problematic than mileage. If you like the coach and buy it I would suggest getting VMSpec or BlueFire, both will report the ECM mileage."

[smagown]

Like Gil Johnson told you on Prevost’s Owners Group on Facebook, is the DDEC original? If not it may be from a high mileage D60. What about books and records ? What make of coach are you looking at?

[SouthernDevGirl]

@"MrE" - Those are excellent points we've come to learn with watercraft and RV's both.

Through the years we've owned well over a dozen watercraft, three Class B RV's, etc.

Your statement:
> In my opinion the coach sitting for long periods is more problematic than mileage.

Is something we try to share with everyone. People rarely believe us, with the exception of others that have been in the same situation of having bought several used models of both high/low mileage vehicles. The LOW mileage has caused us far more problems than the high.

Your other statement:
> NADA doesn't cover Newells so basically milage won't alter a non existent value.

Equally important, in many states the titles should theoretically list "exempt" for mileage. If 2011 or prior, this is a high likelihood in most states (including the popular Montana registration).

[bestgenman]

For what it is worth, 567 has 240,000 miles and 2660 engine hours (from the tach).  You don’t mention the engine hours.
And, Steve’s statement is spot on however, I think it is rare the ECMs get changed. You all have made good arguments.   The physical appearance, mechanical condition, and samples would certainly be factors for your decision.

This is my second Newell, the first had 500,000 when sold and it is still on the road!

Edit: while checking the ProDriver, I found the engine hour recorded as 4660.

[folivier]

I think if an ECM is replaced it has to be programmed to that specific engine. If so then the mileage might be correct in the ECM.

[kyleb]

Mileage does not matter like it used to - generally speaking, roads & lubricants are so much better.

High mileage may mean it was dependable & the owner wasn't afraid to use it.
Low mileage may mean it was in the shop so much that they were afraid to use it . . .

More important to me is the current condition of the machine. Bad maintenance or abuse can ruin anything- new or old.
Lack of records do not mean no maintenance - Receipts don't guarantee the work was done properly OR to that coach.

LOOK at what is before you - AND - As with any used vehicle, be ready for doing unexpected repairs. 

[Richard]

You asked for input.

First, I think more research is needed to establish the true mileage. For example, a Carfax or similar title search should provide data to go along with what you have already learned.

There are all kinds of scenarios that fit the ECM mileage situation. First, the ECM could have come from another Series 60, and not have been reprogrammed. I have a second ECM, that was supposed to be programmed to show the carryover mileage from the original ECM. Supposed to, but it does not. It showed 0 miles when I put it in service. The owner is unlikely to allow you to take the ECM out of the coach and have a DD dealer read the specifics on it, such as “does the serial number in the ECM match the engine?”

So for both your questions, you should try to establish a second and independent source for knowing the true mileage.

As far as your potential purchase, it’s hard enough to establish a rock solid value for a older high end coach in today’s market, much less establish a value for an extra 100 or 200k miles over what is typical. Our coach has 262k miles, and the engine is not something I worry about. It doesn’t use more than a quart of oil between yearly oil changes at about 15k miles. Oil analysis by Blackstone on this particular engine shows ZERO signs of wear.

Your inspection and a test drive will tell you more about the wear on the interior, and the tightness of the chassis components than any of us internet armchair quarterbacks.

As far as your moral obligation to report the discrepancy to potential buyers. This is my opinion, and only MY opinion. First, without confirmatory independent data, I don’t think you are on solid ground in reporting the issue to the world. Second, if a potential buyer identified an issue to me that I was unaware of, then I would appreciate the opportunity to correct the issue in my advertising. I would have to give the seller the benefit of the doubt if the mileage were confirmed. Third, if the coach is a Newell, and you confirmed the discrepancy, then the gentlemanly way to handle this is to monitor the forum and see if anyone asks for info on the coach. If that happens, then a “PM me” allows you to express your concerns.

Again, you asked for opinions, and this is mine.