Charging Issues - Printable Version
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RE: Charging Issues - Richard - 12-21-2022
Ron,
I really am trying to help you, not insult you. In your original post, you make three different statements about battery voltage. Once 12.9, once 0.0, and once dead. It’s difficult to armchair trouble shoot without accurate data. I asked for voltage at the battery to begin the trouble shooting process.
As Joe said, if the batteries were indeed dead or 0 volts, then the inverter charger will not “think” there is a battery connected, and therefore will NOT go into charge mode. That is why it is important to know what the voltage is at the battery terminals.
If I were trouble shooting this with my own rig, the next place I would check voltage would be at the 12V input terminals on the inverters. If you have the same voltage there, it tells you that your fuses are good, your cutoff switches have continuity, and you have good connection at the terminals.
If you have over 12V at the battery then the inverter should invert and produce 120VAC power. Does it? If you have 12V at the inverter input terminals and the inverter doesn’t invert and the charger doesn’t charge, then it would lead me to suspect the inverter/charger or the control panel.
And one last mystery as a reader, when you cranked the generator and the inverter circuits came to life, did the batteries start a charge cycle?
RE: Charging Issues - Wardworks - 12-22-2022
No worries Richard, I'm just a bit cranky because of this happening while I'm trying to enjoy Christmas with my family.
I charged the batteries on an external charger all day. I checked them with a meter last night and they are at 12.6V, I then checked the voltage at both inverters and it's the same 12.6V
I disconnected everything again, waited an hour, connected all back up and both inverter displays turn on, one says it has shore power but the charge light is is not on, it shows 12.6V on the display and then after about a minute the alarm goes off light blinks red and says code 195 on the display and shuts down. The other Inverter shows the shore power green light is on as well as the charge light 12.6V on the display but it says +0.0 on the charge.
One odd thing at least to me that I noticed is once I reconnect shore power, the 120V air compressor and the 120V water pump do not work, but if I start the generator and then shut it off they now work until I disconnect the shore power again. Is that normal or does the transfer switch have an issue.
RE: Charging Issues - Richard - 12-22-2022
I think you need to look at the transfer switch before going any further. Are you comfortable taking the lid off and probing with the voltmeter? Do you know what to check? If not, give a shout and we can provide explicit instructions.
RE: Charging Issues - Wardworks - 12-22-2022
I agree about testing the transfer switch Richard. After posting my reply and reading what i typed, it dawned on me that plugging in shore power did not raise the voltage on the inverter displays but starting the generator did, so that means the inverters are seeing the A/C when the generator runs but not when the shore power is plugged in. I ran out of time last night but I should have disconnected everything again waited a half hour and started the generator but not plug in the shore power. I'm pretty sure I would have got a different result. I know if the inverters don't get the correct amount of A/C they wont work correctly.
I'm not afraid to open up the Transfer switch powered up and test it. I'm still learning how to test the electrical side of things so can you provide the steps necessary to test it? I would appreciate it.
RE: Charging Issues - Richard - 12-22-2022
Sure !
Voltmeter should be set to AC. Keep in mind you will be exposed to 220 volts with the ATS open.
The very first thing to test is the plug that you are plugged into. Put “testing 50 amp RV plug” into your search engine and watch any of the 100’s of YouTube videos on how to do it.
I suggest you unplug the coach before you remove the lid. That way if you get fat fingers you won’t drop any screws into hot electrical circuits. Take some time to familiarize yourself with what you are looking at before you plug it in.
You are going to see two square contactors with three terminals on each side. The middle terminal will be a white wire, the neutral. The other two will be black and red. Those are the two hot legs.
Identify which of the wires is coming from the shore power by plugging in the coach. The contactor associated with the shore power will close. You should see a small square in the center of the contactor. It will be depressed when the contactor is closed.
The wires closest to you will be the input wires. One from shore and one from generator.
On the three input terminals to the contactor, measure from neutral(white) to one of the hot legs (black). You should get 110 or so, measure from neutral to the other hot leg (red). You should also get about 110 or so. Now measure from one hot leg to the other(black to red). You should get 220 or so. This step confirms the power is getting from the pedestal to the ATS.
Now go to the other side of the contactor that is engaged or activated. It will be the other side of what you just measured. Repeat the measurements above. If the contactor is properly transferring power, you should get very close to the same readings.
Come back with those numbers, and we can tell if more testing is required. I say that because of your statement that the systems work when on the generator.
If the voltages are not correct on the input side, then the problem lies between the ATS and the plug. It could be loose connections on the ATS, in the plug, or bad contacts in the cord reel. It could be your power you are plugged into.
If the voltages are correct on the input side of the contactor, but low on the output side, then the contactor is defective. It is possible to replace the contactor, but most folks find it easier to replace the entire ATS.
Keep in mind you are testing hot circuits with enough oomph to harm you.
RE: Charging Issues - Wardworks - 12-22-2022
Thanks Richard here's what I found:
124.6V neutral to L1 incoming 122.7V neutral to L2 incoming
It's exactly the same on the out going side of the contactor
RE: Charging Issues - Parisjet - 12-22-2022
(12-22-2022, 06:45 PM)Richard Wrote: Sure !
Voltmeter should be set to AC. Keep in mind you will be exposed to 220 volts with the ATS open.
The very first thing to test is the plug that you are plugged into. Put “testing 50 amp RV plug” into your search engine and watch any of the 100’s of YouTube videos on how to do it.
I suggest you unplug the coach before you remove the lid. That way if you get fat fingers you won’t drop any screws into hot electrical circuits. Take some time to familiarize yourself with what you are looking at before you plug it in.
You are going to see two square contactors with three terminals on each side. The middle terminal will be a white wire, the neutral. The other two will be black and red. Those are the two hot legs.
Identify which of the wires is coming from the shore power by plugging in the coach. The contactor associated with the shore power will close. You should see a small square in the center of the contactor. It will be depressed when the contactor is closed.
The wires closest to you will be the input wires. One from shore and one from generator.
On the three input terminals to the contactor, measure from neutral(white) to one of the hot legs (black). You should get 110 or so, measure from neutral to the other hot leg (red). You should also get about 110 or so. Now measure from one hot leg to the other(black to red). You should get 220 or so. This step confirms the power is getting from the pedestal to the ATS.
Now go to the other side of the contactor that is engaged or activated. It will be the other side of what you just measured. Repeat the measurements above. If the contactor is properly transferring power, you should get very close to the same readings.
Come back with those numbers, and we can tell if more testing is required. I say that because of your statement that the systems work when on the generator.
If the voltages are not correct on the input side, then the problem lies between the ATS and the plug. It could be loose connections on the ATS, in the plug, or bad contacts in the cord reel. It could be your power you are plugged into.
If the voltages are correct on the input side of the contactor, but low on the output side, then the contactor is defective. It is possible to replace the contactor, but most folks find it easier to replace the entire ATS.
Keep in mind you are testing hot circuits with enough oomph to harm you.
In addition to what Richard said, i always wear a pair of good quality exam gloves and tennis shoes. You can accidentally touch a 220v hot circuit and not get hurt.
RE: Charging Issues - Richard - 12-23-2022
Well, that’s good news as far as the transfer switch goes, but I am mystified now about why the outlets work on generator power and not on shore power. There is one more long shot test we should do while you have the cover off the ATS. On the backside of the contactors, you will see that they are actually wired together, and one of them has connections that continue to the 120V breaker panel inside. If the works on generator, doesn’t work on shore power situation is confirmed, then the backside connection that leads to the breaker panel should be checked in the same manner as you performed. It is doubtful, but in the interest of a thorough diagnosis, it should be confirmed. And so should the generator vs shore power behavior be confirmed.
So, for a second, let’s discuss how the 120v circuits that run through the inverter are configured. Circuits powered by the inverter which include the 120V water pump and the 120V air compressor, are wired through the inverter. The inverter has an internal ATS. If the inverter senses external 120V power from the shore or generator, it automatically switches to uses that power for the circuits. If the inverter does not sense 120v input, then it uses the 12v battery power to invert and provide 120v AC for the circuits.
There are breakers in the 120V box that control the 120v to the inverters. Those should be checked, and flipped a couple of times to make sure they are making good contact. You may have two since you have two inverters.
If you have access to the inverters, you could check the 120V voltage at the inverter input terminals. If you have 120V at those terminals, then you pretty much have narrowed the problem to the inverter(s). The error code you listed is pretty much a “inverter has lost it’s mind” code. But it is important to eliminate all possible causes before replacing an inverter.
I don’t recall if you checked to see if the inverter will actually invert off of your manually charged batteries to produce 120V power. Would you check to see if the inverter works of 12V power now that the house batteries are charged?
The fact that your house batteries will accept and hold a charge using a manual charger tends to eliminate a bad battery as a contributor to the issue.
I have run across others with wacky inverter malfunction that traced it to faulty temperature sensors. Some inverters have temp sensors on the batteries to prevent the charger from overcharging the batteries. I don’t know if your setup has temp sensors or not.
And, HEY !, I know there are a bunch of electrical engineers on this forum. They have to have more insight than my redneck learning.
Anyone else have insight on this vexing problem?
RE: Charging Issues - Jack Houpe - 12-23-2022
Make sure you have 220vac meter reading between L1 and L2, forget the neutral for now. If you do not have 220vac then you have 110v single phase going to both L1 and L2. I would check the 50amp 220v outlet your plugged into.
RE: Charging Issues - Wardworks - 12-23-2022
(12-23-2022, 05:37 AM)Jack Houpe Wrote: Make sure you have 220vac meter reading between L1 and L2, forget the neutral for now. If you do not have 220vac then you have 110v single phase going to both L1 and L2. I would check the 50amp 220v outlet your plugged into.
I have right at 240V across L1 and L2 on both sides of the Shoreline contactor.