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Newell Gurus
Toe-in Change & Tire Wear - Printable Version

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+--- Thread: Toe-in Change & Tire Wear (/showthread.php?tid=2628)

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RE: Toe-in Change & Tire Wear - Richard - 06-08-2023

Tony,

I won’t drag you through my dozens of posts of things I have done or tried in an effort to make my coach handle like a BMW.

I am going to list a lot of the things I have done in the order of improvement to the wandering coach problem.

The following had appreciable impact in improving the steering and straight line stability. Again in order of impact:
1 Replaced lower bearing in steering column
2. Tightened loose pinch clamp of upper steering joint to steering column
3. Replaced tag axle bushings
4. Replaced track bar, panhard bar, torque bar. All the same names for the part that stabilizes the drive axle side to side.

Things that made a little difference:

5. Adjusted steering gear box. It’s a Goldilocks thing. Too loose is sloppy, too tight is EVIL.
6. Replaced all tie rod and drag link ends.
6.5 Lowered front tire pressure to minimum for the measured weight of my front axle.
7. Fine tuned toe in. Took about a month on the road, but I would adjust and drive. Adjust and drive. I ended up at 1/16, but my experiments told me that it wasn’t as sensitive as I thought it would be.
8. Rebuilt upper part of GM tilt wheel column with oversized bearings
9. Installed lower brace on steering column to reduce flex

Things that didn’t make one hoot of difference.

10. Rebuilding the steering gear box
11. Road King shocks

Bill is spot on. Your coach may have that rag joint in the middle of the intermediate steering shaft. If so, that HAS to be fixed.

Second, if your Howard is inoperative, that cylinder should be removed. Otherwise it could very well provide stiction (stick / slip) to the small movements in the steering wheel you make. You are not going to find a “kit” with the seals. Howard has been out of business for over 15 years. You might be able to take it apart, measure the seals, and put new ones in. Or take it to a hydraulic shop and let them get the seals. It would be easy enough to take it loose, and go for a test drive.

Third look carefully at your tag axle bushings. If they are worn out, the tag wheels move about and the tail wags the dog. Same thing with the panhard bar.

RE: Toe-in Change & Tire Wear - Tony Van Helden - 06-08-2023

That is an impressive response Richard!  Thanks!

The only thing I may add is that with a very slight steering wheel adjustment and I get an immediate /tight response.  In my non-mechanical mind it suggests no sloppiness in any of the mechanical linkages.  However, I do know to respect all the past applied Guru skills!  Also, I put new 365s on last Fall and they now 4k on them with no weird wear patterns.
Richard, I noticed you've made mention of both 1/16" and 3/16" toe in measurements.  Do either one represent a least drastic alternative for 1st option?

RE: Toe-in Change & Tire Wear - Richard - 06-09-2023

At the time, I recommended the 3/16 to Chester, that was the best info I could gather based on recommendations from the manufacturer on our front end, Prevost recommendations, and my own experience.

I now use 1/16 as my preferred setting.

Since I made that recommendation, I took a summer of travel and experimented with everything from 1/8 to zero toe. 1/16 worked the best for me. Now I have to explain how I did this at the risk of boring you to tears. Almost all alignments are done on an alignment rack where the front tires rest on plates that are free to rotate and slide side to side. I did mine as a “rolling” alignment. As the front end is toed in, the tires generate an inward force. The purpose of toe in is to take advantage of that inward force and preload any looseness in all the mechanisms. Depending upon the tolerance in the system, the rolling toe can be quite different than the static toe. I would make the small adjustment I wanted by twisting the tie rod end, and then lower the coach to the ground, and roll forward about 20 feet. Then I would take my homemade trammel bar and measure the toe as it exists when the coach rolls down the road.

Why do that? One, because it gives you the toe in setting as the coach rolls. Two, I have paid for many alignments. Even one by one of the the most highly recommended outfits in the country. After having the alignment done, I would not be happy with how the coach held the road. When I measured the toe in with my crude setup, I could not believe some of the measurements I would see, so I ended up undoing what the alignment shop did. Setting the toe in is not rocket surgery.

If you want a eye opening confirmation of what I am saying, then take 20 minutes and a tape measure to run this experiment. The 365 tires have a very nice groove at the inside edge that will catch the hook of the tape measure. Run it from inside groove to inside groove. Record both back and front measurements on the tires. The difference gives you the toe in. Now, drive the coach forward 20 ft, and measure again. Now drive it backward 20 ft and measure again. Note the dramatic change in toe in.

The point being that the 1/16 that I prefer is rolling toe. I would tell the alignment shop to use that number also, but I would check the rolling toe after the work was done to ensure the coach wasn’t actually toed out. Toed out will cause the coach to dart from side to side. Well as much as a 50k beasts can dart.

RE: Toe-in Change & Tire Wear - Chester Stone - 06-09-2023

Since Richard mentioned my name, I am inclined to respond. My 2001 wabbled all over the road and I had to constantly work the wheel. I had the coach realigned front to rear while at Newell. I had previously installed 365s on the front and concluded that I would never wear them out so I insisted that Newell set my toe in at 3/16 or 1/4, but I cannot remember exactly. They argued about doing it because their alignment machine was not geared for it. They did it anyway and solved my problem. From then on, it did drive with just a finger on the wheel. The key was to not to worry about wearing the tires since they would be replaced by time, not wear.

RE: Toe-in Change & Tire Wear - Richard - 06-09-2023

Chester,

it’s so good to hear from you !!!!

RE: Toe-in Change & Tire Wear - Trainer - 06-09-2023

Hello there Chester Stone. You need to check in more often, please Sir.

And, I had my 1995 Foretravel set from 1/16 to 3/16 too. Drove much better also.

RE: Toe-in Change & Tire Wear - Tony Van Helden - 06-09-2023

Well, I believe there's a interesting solution here in the near future!  But 1st I'll be leaving the country for a couple weeks and then a nasty achilles tendon repair the day after our return.  Thanks guys!

RE: Toe-in Change & Tire Wear - Jack Houpe - 06-10-2023

More good info to fine tune our steering.